wow... that was pretty heavy! no way this kind of talk would ever pass in the church i'm going to right now (of course, we are looking for a new church...)
sincerely, i don't think i know ANY man in my church who would qualify as a real 'man' as exposed in this video... do you?
i think this topic deserves discussion! so what's your take?
Well, the only man I know well enough to speak for is my husband, and he is absolutely one of the 'real men' driscoll talks about in this video. privately and publicly, he IS. It didn't come easy for him, though... he was discipled and mentored through some gnarly stuff by a man who showed him what a true father and husband is supposed to look like, and I didn't even understand how much that relationship would bless MY life until many years later when I realized that I had married an exception to the rule-- a man whom I can follow and respect and whom I hope with all my heart my boys eventually will turn out to be like.
This is not an impossible, unattainable standard that he sets forth in this video. But the fact that men like this are so few and far between now-a-days just goes to prove how desperately this talk is needed- and how this largely fatherless generation has suffered from a lack of true example.
I actually couldn't finish listening to the guy... seems a little unrealistic to put people in such a confined box. I believe God created us all differently. We all have certain things we need to work on and should strive to be more like Jesus every day, but we are different and different isn't a bad thing.
Morgan- that is true of our giftings and personalities, yes! We are all unique and not called to be robots. Of course.
But he's not talking about those things here. Many men today are just plain in sin... disobeying what God says in His Word about honoring and leading their wives as Christ loves and leads the church.
He is calling those men out. Sin is sin no matter how you package it. And that may seem confining, but God himself says that the road to life is narrow- and few will find it.
I love that he called the abusive mean men idiots, we are all thinking it anyways!! And having three sons it made me want to own this cd, and listen to the wife part! I agree 100% because all the things he said that women fear were right on the money!! Do u know were I can get the wife one?
Jess: If you have iTunes, you can download the sermon(s) you want for free and then just burn them to a CD so you can have a hard copy. (if you don't have itunes, you can download that for free too at http://www.apple.com/itunes/)
Chris and I were talking about how we need to listen to these at least once a month... so very good.
I believe he was referring to the chauvinist, abusive men and the cowardly, irresponsible boys who call them selves Christians....probably the same kind of language Jesus used when he turned over tables and rebuked the heretics that turned a place of worship into a market place.
I am a little confused. Are you including yourself in this group by saying he called you and idiot?
I think it's a bummer that the term "Christian" has become such a loaded thing.
What group am I in? That's a hard question man. I'm not really a fan of labels and don't tend to enjoying putting myself into a box. But since you kind of asked, I'd have to say that I find myself standing with the imperfect men of the world.
I used to lean a little towards being a chauvinist but have many years working that out of my personality. My wife says its gone, but I still have some more work to do.
Cowardly - Sometimes. But I believe in what I believe in and will stand up for it. Am I scared while doing this...sometimes. A lot of times there is little difference between a coward and a hero.
I don't think many people tend to think that a man that beats his wife is a "real man" but that man is real and I believe God still loves him. I believe it is up to God to judge that man, not me. It is my responsibility to help the one being abused.
I tend to think I'd have more time to love and help others if I spend less time condemning and passing judgment on them.
Is there some reason you and your wife feel so strongly about this? Is one sin worse then another? "Sin is sin no matter how you package it."
M&T- I think you really have to watch this whole message to hear the true heart. Later on in the talk he explains his tone and his heart behind it. I think his tone really is necessary for some men to finally 'get it'. He's speaking to men who really do need rebuke.
God rebukes those he loves- desiring them to change their ways and live the life He intended. Sometimes it seems harsh and is almost always painful, but it always brings life. This meassage has brought life to us and many we know, so I wanted to share it.
David- Yes I am aware... not sure why that would make a difference in the message?
I agree that God rebukes those he loves and I have have been rebuked by God.
I do stray from the "straight and narrow" at times and need to be smacked (or rebuked) by God. When he does guide me back towards His path, I feel I am living the life God intended for me.
I stray... He pokes...I stray...He pokes...
When God rebukes me, it is with love. I felt no love from the man in the video.
This video touched you and you wanted to share that, that's great. It really is. May I ask what your exceptions were?
I find myself wondering if sinful men were meant to see it and change their ways or if others were meant to see it and loving rebuke people (they have relationships with) that might be straying from God's path.
My expectations were to share something that really impacted Chris and I. That's what I do here ... share things that move me and challenge me.
Chris has been in a Men's Fraternity Group at our church and has felt really challenged and encouraged by studying what a Biblical, Christ-led man looks like. It is rocking his world.
I'm sorry if the video offended you so much and you didn't feel love from Mark Driscoll. I did feel huge amounts of encouragement and care from him- to the point of tears- and I just wanted others to have the opportunity to hear it as well.
A few older guys (uncles) who have had 20+ years marriage love this video and want it to show some younger men in there church. I think that there has to be something said with older sucessfull men who agree with this.
Emery, were did you get this video? COuld you direct me in a direction or give me a linky dink! And thankyou for the itunes, im going to download it right now!
i think i'm just still shocked you posted a video by mark driscoll. he's like number two on my cook list (right after ann coulter). can't stand this guy. i'm gonna watch... i'll be back.
skylana- probably because of that video you posted where he was debating with deepak chopra? Yea that video totally frustrated me too. But I really liked this message and wanted others to hear it.
The comments are working for me... although I just switched my blog over to the 'new blogger' format last night, so let me know if it's still not letting you comment for some reason!! There may be some bugs to work out.
I watched this last night with my husband and we were glad we watched it because of the conversation we got to have after it. Thank you for sharing, Emery.
I appreciate Mark Driscoll's challenge to Christian men, and I can appreciate that this is clearly something that Mark has a passion for. However, despite the explanation of his tone, I was disppointed by the lack of hope for the men he was calling out in his message.
Mark was right to call them out and I agreed with nearly everything he said, except when he said "Some of you men may be too far gone..."
The ministry I work with puts me face to face with strip club owners, bouncers, porn addicts and pimps each month and God craves these men as much as He craves the "good" Christian men. That's why He sent Jesus.
Maybe Mark Driscoll believes this too, but he didn't articulate God's grace as much as I would have liked.
Regardless, this video gave me a lot to think about and it sparked a very good conversation with my wonderful husband, so thank you for posting, Emery!
Beth- thanks for your comment! I totally agree with you... God loves and desires the 'unloveable' just as much as He desires the men who seem to have it all together.
The thing I really took away from the video was that it was more of a call to Christian men who had been going to church for YEARS but still weren't treating the women they claimed to love as Christ would have them be loved.
I think this epedemic of men who are "too much or too little" has been a huge problem inside the walls of the church for FAR too long and I think that the goal of this message was to tell those men that it was no longer okay to treat women that way.
I also agree with your thought that no one is ever too far gone to be beyond the hope of God. So very true.
Thanks for posting this. I read your blog here and there.
I find Mark Driscoll very refreshing and inspiring. I admire his ability to lay down the truth without worry about stepping on someone's toes.
I actually lived in Seattle 7 years ago and my husband and I attended his church before it was mega. At the time, his views really rocked my own and I found myself offended at times too. However, I am so thankful for those moments as they caused me to question my views and search for truth.
We need more people in the church to speak the Word of God boldly and honestly.
I have loved the discussion this video has opened up- in my own home and elsewhere. What does it look like for a husband to love his wife as christ loved his church? It's a beautiful question, dealing with laying down one's life and the washing of feet.
It is good to think on these things and be challenged.
For any who may be interested, here's my pastor, Dr. Sam Storms, speaking on the same passage. (A different voice for those who don't like the harshness of Driscoll's tone.)
i'm gonna try again... that debate and any other things i've read or heard from him. i dont appreciate arrogant religious men.
the only things that really bothered me was him being SO stereotypical of men and women... esp because i'm part of a couple who IS NOT the stereotype... and the other part that i thought was ridic was him saying "shame on you" at the end!!!!!!!! he says he follows jesus and then he uses his words in SUCH a manipulative way AND a way that jesus completely spoke against. i thought there was NO condemnation. i guess that's true, there's only shame.
also i never like when people talk about marriage like its only supposed to be ONE way. because marriage should be how it works for you and your spouse and sometimes christian people feel like they can't be the way they need to be because christianity says no... or really their church leaders or peers say no. they think they have some sort of monopoly on marriage, its really annoying.
and the whole "god has turned his back on you" bit.. silly
i dont know, i mean i'm glad he loves himself so much.
the rest was nothing new. nothing i haven't heard a billion times.
EJ - I am a huge fan of MD and have been since Debra sent me his "Peasant Princess: A Study in Song of Solomon" while I was deployed to Afghanistan last year. You need to get that and post it up; it is a VERY frank exposition on the book and really made me re-evaluate certain aspects of my relationship with my wife. The reason that I point this out is because I'm pretty sure that he used much of the same language, honesty, and stubborn rigidity in preaching on what he sees as a right relationship between a husband and a wife, as it is laid out in the Bible. Of course, if you don't hold the Bible to be the literal Word of God, then that won't really matter to you and the point is moot. Also, I've never heard the interview/debate between Deepak Chopra and Mark Driscoll, but isn't Chopra a Hindu who is really big on spirituality and mind-body medicine? What was the flack between them in the interview other than the obvious?
30 comments:
wow. impressive and profound. as a woman, I actually felt uplifted in parts. I think I'm going to share this with my husband.
Thank you for posting this!
wow... that was pretty heavy!
no way this kind of talk would ever pass in the church i'm going to right now (of course, we are looking for a new church...)
sincerely, i don't think i know ANY man in my church who would qualify as a real 'man' as exposed in this video... do you?
i think this topic deserves discussion! so what's your take?
Well, the only man I know well enough to speak for is my husband, and he is absolutely one of the 'real men' driscoll talks about in this video. privately and publicly, he IS. It didn't come easy for him, though... he was discipled and mentored through some gnarly stuff by a man who showed him what a true father and husband is supposed to look like, and I didn't even understand how much that relationship would bless MY life until many years later when I realized that I had married an exception to the rule-- a man whom I can follow and respect and whom I hope with all my heart my boys eventually will turn out to be like.
This is not an impossible, unattainable standard that he sets forth in this video. But the fact that men like this are so few and far between now-a-days just goes to prove how desperately this talk is needed- and how this largely fatherless generation has suffered from a lack of true example.
I actually couldn't finish listening to the guy... seems a little unrealistic to put people in such a confined box. I believe God created us all differently. We all have certain things we need to work on and should strive to be more like Jesus every day, but we are different and different isn't a bad thing.
Morgan- that is true of our giftings and personalities, yes! We are all unique and not called to be robots. Of course.
But he's not talking about those things here. Many men today are just plain in sin... disobeying what God says in His Word about honoring and leading their wives as Christ loves and leads the church.
He is calling those men out. Sin is sin no matter how you package it. And that may seem confining, but God himself says that the road to life is narrow- and few will find it.
I'm glad this guy stopped trying to sell me books long enough to call me an idiot.
I'm glad Jesus never called me (or anyone else) an idiot
I love that he called the abusive mean men idiots, we are all thinking it anyways!! And having three sons it made me want to own this cd, and listen to the wife part! I agree 100% because all the things he said that women fear were right on the money!! Do u know were I can get the wife one?
Jess: If you have iTunes, you can download the sermon(s) you want for free and then just burn them to a CD so you can have a hard copy. (if you don't have itunes, you can download that for free too at http://www.apple.com/itunes/)
Chris and I were talking about how we need to listen to these at least once a month... so very good.
Tony
I believe he was referring to the chauvinist, abusive men and the cowardly, irresponsible boys who call them selves Christians....probably the same kind of language Jesus used when he turned over tables and rebuked the heretics that turned a place of worship into a market place.
I am a little confused. Are you including yourself in this group by saying he called you and idiot?
you guys are aware this does not come from the Rob Bell Mars hill church correct?
Where is the love?
I think it's a bummer that the term "Christian" has become such a loaded thing.
What group am I in? That's a hard question man. I'm not really a fan of labels and don't tend to enjoying putting myself into a box. But since you kind of asked, I'd have to say that I find myself standing with the imperfect men of the world.
I used to lean a little towards being a chauvinist but have many years working that out of my personality. My wife says its gone, but I still have some more work to do.
Cowardly - Sometimes. But I believe in what I believe in and will stand up for it. Am I scared while doing this...sometimes. A lot of times there is little difference between a coward and a hero.
I don't think many people tend to think that a man that beats his wife is a "real man" but that man is real and I believe God still loves him. I believe it is up to God to judge that man, not me. It is my responsibility to help the one being abused.
I tend to think I'd have more time to love and help others if I spend less time condemning and passing judgment on them.
Is there some reason you and your wife feel so strongly about this? Is one sin worse then another? "Sin is sin no matter how you package it."
M&T- I think you really have to watch this whole message to hear the true heart. Later on in the talk he explains his tone and his heart behind it. I think his tone really is necessary for some men to finally 'get it'. He's speaking to men who really do need rebuke.
God rebukes those he loves- desiring them to change their ways and live the life He intended. Sometimes it seems harsh and is almost always painful, but it always brings life. This meassage has brought life to us and many we know, so I wanted to share it.
David- Yes I am aware... not sure why that would make a difference in the message?
I agree that God rebukes those he loves and I have have been rebuked by God.
I do stray from the "straight and narrow" at times and need to be smacked (or rebuked) by God. When he does guide me back towards His path, I feel I am living the life God intended for me.
I stray... He pokes...I stray...He pokes...
When God rebukes me, it is with love. I felt no love from the man in the video.
This video touched you and you wanted to share that, that's great. It really is. May I ask what your exceptions were?
I find myself wondering if sinful men were meant to see it and change their ways or if others were meant to see it and loving rebuke people (they have relationships with) that might be straying from God's path.
What does the rest of the blogosphere think?
Correction *expectations*
thanks!
My expectations were to share something that really impacted Chris and I. That's what I do here ... share things that move me and challenge me.
Chris has been in a Men's Fraternity Group at our church and has felt really challenged and encouraged by studying what a Biblical, Christ-led man looks like. It is rocking his world.
I'm sorry if the video offended you so much and you didn't feel love from Mark Driscoll. I did feel huge amounts of encouragement and care from him- to the point of tears- and I just wanted others to have the opportunity to hear it as well.
A few older guys (uncles) who have had 20+ years marriage love this video and want it to show some younger men in there church. I think that there has to be something said with older sucessfull men who agree with this.
Emery, were did you get this video? COuld you direct me in a direction or give me a linky dink! And thankyou for the itunes, im going to download it right now!
Jess- if you click the video, it takes you to the site. marshillchurch.org
Lots of good stuff there!
great post.
Just watched this with my husband. Amen. And thank you, from the both of us.
i think i'm just still shocked you posted a video by mark driscoll. he's like number two on my cook list (right after ann coulter). can't stand this guy. i'm gonna watch... i'll be back.
skylana- probably because of that video you posted where he was debating with deepak chopra? Yea that video totally frustrated me too. But I really liked this message and wanted others to hear it.
The comments are working for me... although I just switched my blog over to the 'new blogger' format last night, so let me know if it's still not letting you comment for some reason!! There may be some bugs to work out.
I watched this last night with my husband and we were glad we watched it because of the conversation we got to have after it. Thank you for sharing, Emery.
I appreciate Mark Driscoll's challenge to Christian men, and I can appreciate that this is clearly something that Mark has a passion for. However, despite the explanation of his tone, I was disppointed by the lack of hope for the men he was calling out in his message.
Mark was right to call them out and I agreed with nearly everything he said, except when he said "Some of you men may be too far gone..."
The ministry I work with puts me face to face with strip club owners, bouncers, porn addicts and pimps each month and God craves these men as much as He craves the "good" Christian men. That's why He sent Jesus.
Maybe Mark Driscoll believes this too, but he didn't articulate God's grace as much as I would have liked.
Regardless, this video gave me a lot to think about and it sparked a very good conversation with my wonderful husband, so thank you for posting, Emery!
~Beth
Beth- thanks for your comment! I totally agree with you... God loves and desires the 'unloveable' just as much as He desires the men who seem to have it all together.
The thing I really took away from the video was that it was more of a call to Christian men who had been going to church for YEARS but still weren't treating the women they claimed to love as Christ would have them be loved.
I think this epedemic of men who are "too much or too little" has been a huge problem inside the walls of the church for FAR too long and I think that the goal of this message was to tell those men that it was no longer okay to treat women that way.
I also agree with your thought that no one is ever too far gone to be beyond the hope of God. So very true.
Yes indeed!
Thanks for posting this. I read your blog here and there.
I find Mark Driscoll very refreshing and inspiring. I admire his ability to lay down the truth without worry about stepping on someone's toes.
I actually lived in Seattle 7 years ago and my husband and I attended his church before it was mega. At the time, his views really rocked my own and I found myself offended at times too. However, I am so thankful for those moments as they caused me to question my views and search for truth.
We need more people in the church to speak the Word of God boldly and honestly.
Thanks for the video!
I have loved the discussion this video has opened up- in my own home and elsewhere. What does it look like for a husband to love his wife as christ loved his church? It's a beautiful question, dealing with laying down one's life and the washing of feet.
It is good to think on these things and be challenged.
For any who may be interested, here's my pastor, Dr. Sam Storms, speaking on the same passage. (A different voice for those who don't like the harshness of Driscoll's tone.)
http://bridgewaychurch.com/podcast/071909-honored-wives-and-answered-prayers
so good!
i'm gonna try again... that debate and any other things i've read or heard from him. i dont appreciate arrogant religious men.
the only things that really bothered me was him being SO stereotypical of men and women... esp because i'm part of a couple who IS NOT the stereotype... and the other part that i thought was ridic was him saying "shame on you" at the end!!!!!!!! he says he follows jesus and then he uses his words in SUCH a manipulative way AND a way that jesus completely spoke against. i thought there was NO condemnation. i guess that's true, there's only shame.
also i never like when people talk about marriage like its only supposed to be ONE way. because marriage should be how it works for you and your spouse and sometimes christian people feel like they can't be the way they need to be because christianity says no... or really their church leaders or peers say no. they think they have some sort of monopoly on marriage, its really annoying.
and the whole "god has turned his back on you" bit.. silly
i dont know, i mean i'm glad he loves himself so much.
the rest was nothing new. nothing i haven't heard a billion times.
EJ - I am a huge fan of MD and have been since Debra sent me his "Peasant Princess: A Study in Song of Solomon" while I was deployed to Afghanistan last year. You need to get that and post it up; it is a VERY frank exposition on the book and really made me re-evaluate certain aspects of my relationship with my wife. The reason that I point this out is because I'm pretty sure that he used much of the same language, honesty, and stubborn rigidity in preaching on what he sees as a right relationship between a husband and a wife, as it is laid out in the Bible. Of course, if you don't hold the Bible to be the literal Word of God, then that won't really matter to you and the point is moot. Also, I've never heard the interview/debate between Deepak Chopra and Mark Driscoll, but isn't Chopra a Hindu who is really big on spirituality and mind-body medicine? What was the flack between them in the interview other than the obvious?
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